Episode 49 // Listening to Your Horse With Jim Masterson

In our 49th episode on the podcast, Jim Masterson joins me to discuss his experiences working on horses using his own method of bodywork, the Masterson Method. We discuss:

🔸︎ Bodywork with horses at liberty vs. restrained

🔸︎ Recommendations for nervous horses, and horses who don’t like being touched 🔸︎Calming signals/stress signals in relation to bodywork

🔸︎Allowing horses to eat during sessions, especially if they are stressed or nervous 🔸︎Examining the root cause of pain and tension And so much more!

Jim Masterson was the equine bodywork therapist for the 2006 through 2014 US Endurance Teams, and for show jumping and eventing equine athletes competing in World Cup, Pan American and World Equestrian Games competitions. The method of bodywork he uses follows responses of the horse to touch, that enable it to release tension in the body that affects performance and behavior. It is a method that anyone can use to improve performance and behavior, and to open new levels of communication and trust with the horse. To learn more about Jim Masterson and the Masterson Method, head over to his website, https://mastersonmethod.com/, as well as check out his YouTube channel.

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[00:00:00] Adele: Hey there. Welcome to the TWE Podcast. The podcast where we talk about all things related to horse training. Horse keeping and being better horse people for our horses. I hope you enjoy this episode today, and if you'd like to share your thoughts with me or have suggestions for future podcast episodes, please feel free to reach out to me through social media or the t w website, the willing equine.com.

[00:00:37] On my website, you can also find a ton of great information about horse training and keeping in general, as well as check out the t w services and just learn more about us. Also, we have courses and memberships that you could sign up for. Before you do that though, I would love for you to listen to this episode and I hope it inspires you in a positive way today.

[00:01:03] Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode of The Willing Equine Podcast. Today I have Jim Masterson with us. Jim Masterson was the Equine Body work Therapist for the 2006 through 2014, US Endurance Teams and for show jumping and eventing equine athletes competing in World Cup, pan-American and World Equestrian Games competitions. The method of body work he uses follows responses of the horse to touch that enable it to release tension in the body that affects performance and behavior. It is a method that anyone can use to improve performance and behavior and to open new levels of communication and trust with the horse.

[00:01:43] Thank you so much, Jim, for being here with us today. Could you share a little bit about yourself and where you're located and maybe a little bit of your journey leading up to starting your, what you do with the body work and everything?

[00:01:56] Jim: Sure. So, you know, when you do a bio, you don't know what, what, what kind of aspect that people are interested in. So I just, I like a short bio, but when you read it back it sounded really long.

[00:02:08] Adele: No, it's not too long, but no, we love details. Don't worry about it.

[00:02:12] Jim: Yeah. So I started doing this when I was grooming hunter Jumpers and I wasn't interested in equine massage or therapy or anything then, but, but I was kind of intrigued by when I would watch therapists work on the horses by subtle changes in the horse's behavior, and, and I've always been kind of less interested in, I'm not competitive and less interested in competing with the horse or making the horse do something. You know what, when I was younger it was just get on and gallop. You know, that was the thing. But I, that was my only goal. But when I, when I was grooming the hunter jumpers, I noticed when therapists were working on the horses, these really subtle changes in behavior in the horse, and I was intrigued by that. So I kind of exploring that and, and trying different things that some therapists were doing, but paying more attention to what the horse was saying with its changes in behavior, which I came to call responses. Responses to our touch and, and I kinda learned that if you slow way down and back way off, that the horse will start to become aware of what's going on in its body that it's been kind of covering. And it'll start to release the tension. And so it turned into this method of body work where you work with the horse and, and you tune it to release tension in the body body. And it turned out to be super effective. And I started doing it and working on hunter jumpers for a living. And I did that for nine years, like full-time and, and then people wanted to start to learn it because it's very interactive with the horse. You know, when you, when you start to slow down and pay attention to what the horse is telling you, then it it changes the whole game. It changes your relationship with your horse. And people could see that happening when I was working on their horses and they wanted to learn how to do it. So I started giving seminars and then I did a book and a dvd and it turned into this method. I just teach people now. Yeah,

[00:04:10] Adele: i, I think I own pretty much all your DVDs and books, so I'm a fan . It sounds very similar actually, to kind of the way I came to what I'm doing, and it was so interesting listening to you talk about your path towards learning this type of body work and creating it and teaching other people. From my perspective, from what I do, I very much work on behavioral stuff, so I'm working with horses that have Interesting and all the way to very damaging histories with people, and they have largely been taught to really shut down and suppress how they're feeling. And so what I do is I really go back in and show them that I'm going to listen to the very, very little subtle shifts of behavior and subtle shifts of their body and they start to learn to open back up and to trust and to change accordingly. And it sounds very much like what you're talking about, but in response to touch and to being, you know, worked with body work wise and. It's probably one of the reasons I'm so drawn to what you do, because it very much comes from a similar place and a similar desire to rebuild the horse's trust in people and in being touched and in allowing us to help them and in really encouraging them to speak up basically about how they're feeling and their experiences and such. Do you feel like that sounds pretty similar to what you, how you take-

[00:05:36] Jim: Yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent. It's the same nervous system that we're working with in the, in the body work as you're working within training with the horse or interacting with horse, it's the same nervous system and it responds the same. So, yeah. You know, just, you know, watching your video there, just, there were so many things that kind of. Connected with the way we do body work with horses. And when I was working on Hunter jumpers, I was dealing mostly with trainers, you know? Mm-hmm, and, and I realized, and, and then, you know, it's a competitive sport, you know, hunter jumpers show, but a lot of, or cons or competitive, a lot of things we do with the horses. And so we, you know, everybody, they all love their horses and they wanna do what's best for them. But they, the com competitions in in the, for. . And so they miss a lot of this, and the horses are so, they survive by adapting. So they adapt to the way we work with them and they adapt to, you know, the input. And so they're so adaptive that we miss what's really there. They're so accommodating. That's how they survive. They, they survive by adapting to their environment .

[00:06:44] Adele: Yeah. And I, I consider them a relatively, you know, they're a kind of a peacekeeping species, meaning there's, they really wanna keep peace with the other beings that they're interacting with, whether it's other horses or us. And so it really, it goes against their nature to really resist and to not adapt and to fight back. And that kind of puts us in a position where it's very easy to overlook their subtle forms of communication and to just kind of force them or push them into something that they're not quite ready for. And they're, they're kind of quietly whispering like, Hey, something's wrong. Something's wrong. And it's so easy for us, especially. I feel like the human nature is to be very just out there and kind of bowling through life. And horses are not that way.

[00:07:30] Jim: That's how, that's how we survive as humans. Yeah, exactly. We're just doing what we do to survive. So Yeah, absolutely. But, but I think, you know, like you just have to one, learn to just slow down and slow way down. We don't, it's hard for us to do. And then the other is to know what to look for. Mm-hmm. , because we, we can slow down with the horse and if we don't know the subtle signs to look for, then we don't. We're, we're kind of lost. You know, what do we do next?

[00:07:58] Adele: Yeah. I, one of the first things I usually, you know, when people come to me and ask for help in this area or that area, one of the first things I usually encourage them to do is to start studying very subtle forms of equine behavior and their body language and the way they communicate to us. And I remember for myself, I, cuz I grew up in Hunter Jumper I competed, I did state and bigger competitions. And then I switched over to dressage and I competed there for a long time and I was very competitive growing up. And then I met a horse that basically said that I needed to slow down and listen and learn , and I was so thankful to her for that, but it was hard. And one of the first things that really just stopped me dead in my tracks and changed everything was learning to really read body language of the horses and to slow down and to listen to them. Instead of kind of pushing my agenda on them. Mm-hmm. And so that's one of the first things that I encourage others to do because it, it's world changing and it's relationship changing and everything is so different when you can finally not just tell your horse what you want, but also hear back from them. And that's one thing I really love about your work is it is very in tune to that. It's very sensitive to how the horse is responding and it's to me, it's not like other body work for horses. Because of that, I find some body work is very intrusive and very just, you know, tie the horse up and make them deal with this discomfort, and we can, we're still too loud about it and I love how subtle and patient and quiet your whole body work process is. And I would love for you to explain a little bit more of how you feel. Your kind of process for body work is different than some other forms of body work?

[00:09:56] Jim: Well you were talking about traditional therapists or massage therapists or whatever are working on horses. They know that it's good for the horse, but the horse doesn't know that. So yes you know, they're, in that sense, they're working a little bit against the horse in a, in a way. And so when you learned how to pay attention to the subtle, well, you know, when you're, if you're not really, you know, sensitive energetically or anything, you, you have your visual cue. So if you know what to look for, then you can, you can identify when the horse is really not accepting what you're doing. And so that's what makes this a little more effective. And it's interesting, you said something that made me think of, you know, when the horse, when you learn how to read what the horse is telling you, it's a new level of communication with the horse. Then it's, that's like a huge jump. But then the horse, when the horse gets that, you're getting what it's saying. That's another huge jump. Yes. So that's a really interesting thing. I was talking with Warwick Schiller on a podcast about that and that was we were talking about that. And he kind of got what I was talking about. He already, he already knew it, but yeah. It's, you know, when you get, when you learn to read what the horse is saying, it's huge. But then when the horse gets that, you're getting it, that changes the whole thing cuz they let you in then. That's when they let you in. .

[00:11:12] Adele: And that's when the trust really starts to build up. Yeah. Especially horses that have largely been ignored.

[00:11:18] Jim: Which is most horses, , which is with humans, most horses, not because we're being mean to them, but because we just don't. Yes. You know, we're not exposed to that yet.

[00:11:26] Adele: Yeah. And, and I will say that, you know, I work with a lot of people and that can be really, It's hard to all of a sudden start hearing what your horse has to say about what you're doing. It's hard to embrace that and accept it cuz it may not be the what you wanna hear. And what's interesting to me, and I've seen this happen many times, where these horses where largely their history has told them that people don't really pay attention. And then they meet somebody, let's say it's me, that pays attention and responds and respects what they are and are not comfortable with and all that. They start doing things for me and are willing to put up with things for me that they won't do for anybody else. And it's such a beautiful thing to. and see happen in, in that trust to really build and their horses' confidence to start really building. And then my task from that point forward is to, you know, start showing that horse that I'm not the only one that other people will listen to. And one of those areas is in body work and I specifically work with body workers, whether it's massage or acupuncture or farriers, even trimmers, farriers, I consider that kind of in that similar category. Yeah. That are very intuned to the horse and are patient. And even if they don't know the horse very well, they are quick to respond to my cues that the horses had enough. Like, we need to take a break that, or we need to do this or we need to do that. And it's such a beautiful relationship that they can build with their body workers and start to learn to trust more people. Yeah.

[00:13:02] Jim: Well, it's that curiosity that, that that they have. And it's a subtle curiosity that allows them to trust, trust what, you know, trust us, you know, but we miss that curiosity part. You know, once you, you create the opening for that curiosity, then they're gonna, they're gonna. Wait and see what's next with you rather than leave.

[00:13:25] Adele: Yeah, definitely. And you can cultivate that and really grow it and build it, or you can crush it . And unfortunately, too many horses have had it, had it really crushed in them, you know?

[00:13:35] Jim: But it's cool because you can get it back. You can get it back, you know, in most cases. And unless it's really bad. And when you, when you, when it goes into the realm of body work and the horse's physiology, they're holding a lot of stuff in their physiology. They, they have trouble letting go. They can't let go. You know, it's not a, it's not a mental thing or a trust thing. It's like it's in their physiology. And it can be from something that's happened in the past that's like an accident or an incident or it can be, well, we're getting into what's creates tension in the horse's body. Work overwork incidents, you know, physical incidents or accidents. Sore feet, dental issues, saddle fit. The way the rider rides, there's a whole list of things that creates tension in the horse's body, but once they, once they, they have that tension, they have a hard time letting go of it because they're not pro, they're programmed to, to, to guard it and, and block it out. So that's how they survive in the wild. If they show the first sign of discomfort, if they start kind of dragging a foot or something, then they become a target. So they're just wired to cover it. So even that mental, their or their experiences in the past with humans will just be kind of, kind of become ingrained in their body. That's probably easier for them to get over than the physical stuff. Probably much easier when they come across a trainer like you that's gonna pay attention. But that physical stuff is, it's stuck. It's stuck there. And so that's where the body work comes in, I think to help it. And if a human is part of that process of releasing physical tension, then it, it's even better, you know, as far as trust goes. Then relationship goes. If we come along and help them release it, then it really helps.

[00:15:15] Adele: Yes, I agree. I have a young mare, she had multiple surgeries on her knees at a very early age. She was only like 18 months old and you know, this is an example of a horse that doesn't have like a long history of a, you know, abuse, right, neglect, or any, she just had surgeries cuz her knees were not, they were not growing straight and, and I was amazed at how long her body, and still to this day, we're still working through it, how long she's been holding onto that. I don't, I don't know if I wanna call it tension or what, but it is there, it is still in her chest and in her knees and her legs. It's taken a long time for her to really work through that, and also at the same time she's growing. So that adds a factor to it. and, it's amazing how long the body.

[00:16:02] Jim: Really, she's, she's compensating as she's growing.

[00:16:04] Adele: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So it's amazing how long the body really holds onto all of that. And something that seems fair. I mean, it wasn't like anything super crazy, you know, like a colic surgery, but it also was traumatic to the body, especially considering she had to be you know, carried by her feet, you know, to the surgery tables and all that. And that's put so much strain on the body.

[00:16:25] Jim: Oh no. Yeah, I don't, yeah, when they, when they, you know, hoist them. Yep. After their, I mean, that's, that alone is, can cause a lot of stress. You know, I, you know, I use tension as kind of a generic term. It's, it's it's stress on the body. And the tension is what kind of remains after, after the stress is put on the body.

[00:16:45] Adele: So I would like to talk to you a little bit more specifically about the type of body work you do. I have some questions even for myself and, you know, I've, I do what I can as far as implementing what I've learned from your materials. And then I do have people I hire that also are either certified in what you do or have learned as well. And I always have ongoing questions. I'm, I'm guess I should put it this way. Okay. I am always curious to hear how very experienced body workers and horse people like yourself choose to do certain things. And one of the first questions I have is what is your thoughts on. , you know, allowing the horse to move around during getting body work. And if they were to want to walk off because something's uncomfortable mm-hmm. and then maybe come back, is that something that usually you encourage or would you prefer the horse to stick around or kind of what's your process on that?

[00:17:38] Jim: So when you're, you're with this method of body work, we start with really light levels of pressure and almost non-pressure, like that bladder meridian technique that we do. There's no pressure on the horse at all. You're just going down the top line of the horse with your hand very lightly, not even touching the skin hardly. And you're watching for subtle changes in the horse's behavior, which I call responses. So the the most common is the blink, you know? So if you're going down lightly, starting at the poll, going down this line called the bladder Meridian. and you're watching the horse's eye and you come across the point where the horse blinks, then you, that means the horse just felt something under your finger, and so you stay there and do nothing. You just wait, and what you're doing is keeping the horse's attention or awareness on that area that it's been kind of covering up to survive and you keep it's awareness on it till it, the nervous system starts to let it go. And then when it, when it release, starts to release the tension, it'll give you the other signs responses like licking and chewing, shifting weight from leg to light leg yawning or repeated yawning, which is a huge release of tension. So you're, you're kind of just. Bringing the horse's awareness to something it's been blocking out. And so during that process of waiting for the horse's nervous system to start to release it, there's a, a phase in their eye called fidgeting. They start to fidget. And it, that means it's a little uncomfortable because they've been, they it's uncomfortable, uncomfortable for them to feel it. And so they wanna fidget. And so fidget might be as in some horses, it might just be. They look around a little bit and then they release, or some horses mean they might wanna walk away from it because it's uncomfortable for them to, to experience that. And so if you have the option of just letting them walk away, then that's fine. And then when they're comfortable, they'll come back. But if you're working on a horse, you know you're doing this on, you know, more, just more than your own horse, you don't really have the time to allow that to happen. So, You wanna keep them in the area. And I call, just keep 'em in the neighborhood. Don't keep the pressure on, you know, back off a little to where it's comfortable, but then you wanna keep 'em with you. So ideally I like to work in the stall with the horse because I can step back, let the horse go, and it can walk away around in the stall and then it comes back again. So but that's an interesting part of that because it's the, the, the, the stress and tension they're holding in their body, it's, it's, they've been blocking it out to and when you bring their attention to it, it's uncomfortable. So they naturally wanna leave. And so you, you you have to, the way I look at it is it's like they're a kid that doesn't wanna do their homework. So I say, okay, I know you don't wanna do your homework, but we gotta do our homework, so stick around a little longer, we're gonna do our homework. And then they release the tension and then when they release it, it's like, okay, that was worth it, you know?

[00:20:27] Adele: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would imagine the more time you're able to work with the horse, said horse, that they'll start to trust the process a little bit more and hang around quite a bit more.

[00:20:38] Jim: Every horse is different. You know, they have, they have huge differences in personality that sometimes, you know, correlates to their breed. Sometimes not, and sometimes to their past, you know, their history, but they have different personalities and some horses right away. When you're doing that bladder meridian technique, you can learn like within a couple minutes. I have a very stoic horse. I have a expressive horse. I have a very expressive but untrusting horse, I have a very expressive, but a very trusting horse. You learn pretty quickly what kind of horse you have but it's always the same. You just gotta stay there long enough for them to start to release it. And then however they respond to it they respond to it. Yeah. But the, the end goal's the same. You wanna get 'em to release it. And you wanna do it in a way that's the least uncomfortable for the horse. You don't want go in their guns blazing. You don't wanna ignore the horse. Everything we do with this method of body work, we're paying attention to what the horse is saying. And so you have to adjust what you're doing to the what, what the horse is saying so that they're as relaxed as possible. Cuz it doesn't work if they're not relaxed. If they're guarded, and bracing and tense, it's not gonna work. They won't. So that makes, that's the difference I think between this and traditional, you know, I think originally when people started working on horses was, you know, they were taking human sports massage therapy and, and applying it to horses. And they probably learned right away that you can't just do that. You have to adjust somewhat because you can't tell the horse, don't worry, it'll be fine. You know, they don't, they dunno what you're talking about, the, you know, so it's been a process of learning. Adjust to the way the horse responds to the body work. Like Jack Maher was the first, you know, big guy that big human sports massage therapist and trigger point guy that started working on, on horses and it worked. You know, they got results when he was working on the horses at work, but they, it's been a process of getting people to start to pay attention to how the horse is responding to the body work. And what the cool thing about what we do. It works. It works much better when you pay attention to what the horse is telling you and adjust what you're doing to what the horse is saying. It just, the horse starts to release the tension instead of you mechanically separating muscle fibers or, or pushing on something until for 90 seconds, you know?

[00:22:49] Adele: That makes sense. Yeah. What are your recommendations? I got a question from one of my students and she wanted me to ask you this, and I'm curious to hear your answer as well. What are your recommendations for horses that are really nervous about being touched or don't like being touched? Maybe they have a long, you know, history of having really severe ulcers and touching is just low on the, you know, the list of their preferences. Right. I would imagine, knowing what I know, you just are gonna talk about. Potentially using the lightest possible touch that the horse will accept. But I wanna hear, you know, what your response to that. Maybe even this horse doesn't even want you to kind of approach or put your hand anywhere near them. Right? What are your thoughts on that?

[00:23:31] Jim: Yeah, so you might go into a stall with a horse, or if you're in the cross ties or whatever, and, and you go to put your hand up to the to the horse. , it backs away, you know, its eyes get wide and it backs away. Well, right away it's, you know, that's pretty clear. So you back off and you back your hand away. So I always use the bladder meridian technique, which is where we start with the horse in which I'll do a short commercial. We have a video on our website that's 15 minutes that's free on how to do the bladder meridian. It's very kind of pretty detailed on how to do it. . So, and you start at the poll . Generally, if the horse is way too sensitive to the pole, you start some, you start farther down the neck towards the withers. But let's say you go, you go to put your hand up by the poll and the horse backs away and it, and its eyes get white. Will you back away from, let's say, here's the, you know, you don't have your video on, let's say here's the horse's neck. You put your hand up there and it backs away. You back your hand away until the horse starts to relax, meaning it's head drops a little. and it's eye softens or it blinks, and you can do that technique from, from 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 inches away from the horse, you just back your hand away till the horse starts to soften a little bit. When the horse softens, that's where you stop because that's where the horse's nervous system is gonna start to let the tension go. And you can, so you can do that bladder meridian technique from sometimes a foot away from. And you just wait there until the, where the horse is comfortable, until the horse's nervous system starts to let go more and more and more, and then it drops its head and it starts to look at you or yawn. So you're paying, so you're paying so close attention. Everything you're doing is guided by what the horse's responses are telling you, and you have to find that spot where the horse is able to let it happen.

[00:25:14] Adele: Then do you feel like when you're working. Large of a distance from the horse, meaning your hand isn't even touching the horse touching at this point. Do you feel like at that point you're working more, you kind of preparing the horse for what comes later? Or do you feel like you're actively engaging with the body and helping them relieve tension.

[00:25:34] Jim: No, you're actually, you're not waiting. You're actually actively engaging with the body. Okay. At that. At that point, you're not just waiting till the horse says, okay, I'm gonna let you in. You're finding that point where the horse is gonna let you. And you're waiting till the nervous system starts to let go. So, yeah. Yeah. So that's a good question. You're active, you're actively giving the horses' body a chance to release tension. So I kind of think of it. I learned later, you know, after I was working on horses, I always knew from the right, from the beginning that there's a part of the horse's nervous system that guards and protects what they're feeling because that's, that's how they survive and there's a part that, that lets it go. And so you're, you're finding that point where they switch from guarding it to letting it go, and you're staying there long enough for that, that kind of switch to happen. And so I learned later it was the you know, just in a simplistic view, which is my favorite view, you have the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic, so the sympathetic is the fight, flight, or freeze. And the parasympathetic is the rest, relax, rest and digest they call it. And that's the regenerating part of the nervous system. So, they're guarding this, they're protecting this, this stress in their body to survive with the sympathetic. And then you're bringing their attention to that. And then you're backing off until they can, they can start to let the parasympathetic take over. And then when that starts to happen, they start to relax. And then when they start to release the tension, that's when you get the visual signs like the licking and chewing. Shifting weight from leg to leg, yawning, repeated yawning. Sometimes they'll, they'll cough or snort and sneeze repeatedly, but those are the signs that they're releasing the tension. So your question about it, are you, you're, you're actively working with the horse when you're, that, when you're, you know, two inches, 4, 6, 10 away from the horse, you're when, and you know you are because you're paying attention to his responses, you're watching his eye. And when your back, your hand away til he may not, not even like his ears are still forward or back or whatever, and his and his eyes are wired and his heads away. But you back your hand away and all of a sudden he blinks. Well, that's the point where you stop and you wait right there, because that's gonna keep his attention on it in a way that he can't brace against it. So that's the long answer. The short answer to your question was yes.

[00:27:50] Adele: No, I, I love that answer. Which it you know, it brings me to something else I wanted to discuss, which is, you know I don't know if you've heard of the book, language Signs and Calming Signals of Horses. Okay. And, and she talks, you know, about how these different signs, like all, pretty much the whole list that you just mentioned are signs of, you know, the horse trying to calm themselves down, calm their environment or down all of that and it signs of the nervous system transitioning. Yeah. So, I love that this all really is collaborative and works together, and it sounds to me, and feel free to elaborate or correct it, but it sounds to me that maybe with the horses that struggle, With being touched and having body work. Initially, we're really working in a little bit more of a mental state, but it o it obviously very much correlates to the rest of the body. They're all connected. It's a, yeah there's not one than the other. And then gradually will work up to perhaps maybe targeting a specific area as the horse grows more comfortable later on.

[00:28:55] Jim: Yeah. You have to back away till the, at least can accept it. So that's what the blink tells you. The blink tells you that they're feeling it, but they're not bracing against it. So if you stay that, and that's where the patience comes in, you have to just wait there and allow, allow the horse to start to that, that transition to, to take place. And that's the hard part for humans. You know, we have a hard time waiting. We think, you know, if less is more, even more, less is more, you know, or something, I don't, you know, we, we feel like we need to be doing something all the time. So I'll, if you just back away and wait. And that's the hard part of this is just waiting for the horses' body to, to start to, to transition and let go. And and if you do have that patience or all you have to have is enough patience to try it. And then once you see the results, you see the horse start to. See, see the horse start to wobble from like, to like, from just doing nothing. Then it starts to click with, with us, you.

[00:29:50] Adele: That sounds very much like my whole journey with horses in general. I used to not be a very patient person at all. I was definitely a go big or go home, keep putting pressure on, let's make this happen right now. And some very special horses in my life, you know, really brought that to a screeching halt and started teaching me the opposite. And so it's been a huge exercise in learning to be very patient. And I remember I first started working with your stuff and, and finding it. During the early stages of that personal growth for myself that the horses were teaching me. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this takes so much patience that I do not have .

[00:30:29] Jim: It's only cause you weren't used to it. So, so I had a much easier time with it cause I'm naturally lazy . So, and the other part that, the other, I joke about this all the time because when I started doing working you know, doing body work, work with horses. I had no training at all. I was a groom. And and so I wasn't, I didn't have any I wasn't trained to do anything with the horse. So when I started noticing these change, these responses, I called them in the horse. I had the patience to wait to see what would happen because I, and then I also wasn't trained to do anything. I was uneducated and lazy . So that was my, those were my two biggest, you know, advantages over other people that were trained and that were ambitious to get things done.

[00:31:12] Adele: Yes, that was me. I am very ambitious and I was always thought that you need to get done quickly.

[00:31:17] Jim: So you've seen, you've seen the light.

[00:31:18] Adele: I've seen the lights. Yes. And now I have three children, so they're continuing to teach me.

[00:31:23] Jim: Oh, good. Oh yeah. You, you really have to be patient. I don't have kids. I can't imagine.

[00:31:27] Adele: Definitely. Between all the horses and the kids, I've learning a lot. . We'll just put it that way. Okay, so with that being said, on. I know you're not gonna be able to give me an answer on this because every horse is different, every situation's different, but

[00:31:42] Jim: Well, I might be able to give you some insight

[00:31:44] Adele: maybe. Okay. In there we go. An insight. How on average, maybe, I don't know. In general, how long do sessions usually take and. Yeah. So let's just start there like, and do, I guess I, yeah, it probably depends on if you're going for like a full body session or a targeted area. So let's say full body.

[00:32:04] Jim: How long? So, so when we work on the horse we, you wanna do the whole body because but you don't have to do it all at once. It's just that you don't wanna, so if your horse has a problem, let's say he I dunno, I'll pick something. Well, it's an obvious problem. He, he won't bend to the right , let's say. So you don't just go work on the right side of the neck or the body because he won't bend to the right. And even if you identify where there's a problem, you don't just keep working on the problem because that problem is connected to another problem and to another problem. So it's really the whole body's involved in every problem. So in general, we always work on the whole horse. We don't just focus on the problem and we always, we also don't go straight to the problem because if you go where the horse is more, most uncomfortable, he's gonna brace against it. So you wanna go where he is the most less, he's the most comfortable . So the answer is all has to do with the answer. One, you wanna do the whole horse if you really wanna get down to what's going on, but you don't have to do it all at once. But if you're gonna do the whole horse on one session, it's gonna take probably an hour and a half or maybe. To do the whole horse. But that doesn't, you know, if you're working on horses for a living and you gotta go from horse to horse, then you have an hour and a half, maybe two for each horse. But if you, if you're working on your own horse, you can do a little bit every day. But even if you know where the problem is, on what spot on the horse where you think the problem is, you don't wanna just go keep working on that. You wanna work on the whole horse, okay? Even if it's over a period of how long, who knows? Or, or even the horses' whole life, you just, okay. You know what I mean? Chip away. You don't wanna just keep trying attacking the problem because the problem is more than that. And also, if you keep attacking the problem, the prob the horse is gonna start to internally brace against that.

[00:33:49] Adele: Yeah. Especially for somebody like myself. I have seven of my own horses and worked full-time, three kids, all of that. Yeah. An hour and a half per horse for a full body session just sounds overwhelming to say the least.

[00:34:02] Jim: Yeah, so you just do a little